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Library: Guidance Sheets: Conflicting Advice

Introduction

Whilst unfortunate, it is sometimes the case that our customers are given advice which conflicts with that that we have provided. To complicate matters further still, sometimes this advice is given by those who are often expected to “know better” than us. The purpose of this sheet is to provide guidance and reassurance for our customers that are placed in this unfortunate position.

Our Background

We have an unrivalled reputation for quality that is rigorously and independently verified, quality-checked, certified, monitored and controlled by BAFE, BSI, FIA, IFE, IFEDA and UKAS.

We carry appropriate and comprehensive certification by UKAS-accredited independent third party (in this case BSI) to BS EN ISO 9001 as set out here. Accordingly, we have great faith that the advice we give is in accordance with these standards. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for the advice given by all other organisations, even those that have a great deal of credibility and those which should know better.

Adherence to British Standards

The above British Standards are the de facto standards applicable to this trade and are recognised by a great many bodies including the Fire Industry Association (“FIA”), the Independent Fire Engineering & Distributors Association (“IFEDA”), the British Standards Institute (“BSI”), the United Kingdom Accreditation Service (“UKAS”), the Chief Fire Officers’ Association (CFOA) and the Association of British Insurers (“ABI”). These standards are held in very high regard.

Ensuring one’s compliance with the British Standards is of considerable importance; It is the surest way for one to ensure one’s obligations in law, one’s obligations as an employer, any insurance requirements, and, not least, of securing peace of mind

Disregarding the British Standards could mean that, if push came to shove, one would have to justify why the British Standards’ expert recommendations had been disregarded in preference to the opinions of another individual or organisation. The certainty of such a position should clearly be very seriously questioned.

More information on this subject can be found in our “The Value of Accreditation & Compliance” guidance sheet. Additionally, the many good economic reasons are discussed in our Guidance Sheet “Effective Fire Fighting: The Economic Argument”.

Conflicting Advice Types

Conflicting advice can generally only fall into one of three categories:

  1. Claims that our advice, service or supply is contrary to, or in excess of the above British Standards.
  2. Advice that whilst (1) above does not apply, different (not lesser) advice/service/supply would also meet the requirements of the British Standard.
  3. Advice that, whilst not stating either (1) or (2) the above, still nonetheless suggests that a lesser level of advice, service or supply would be ‘adequate’.

1. Claimed Excess or Non-Compliance with British Standards

For the reasons mentioned above, we take great care in the quality advice, service and supply. As a result of this, there has never been a sustainable claim of type one made against us. Should such a claim be made, we can of course investigate the matter in line with our Complaints Procedure.

2. Differing, but Still Compliant Advice

The British Standards above quite correctly allow for some flexibility in their implementation. Accordingly, it follows that two different pieces of advice could be given, both of which meet the requirements of the British Standards above. In such cases there is not a problem per se with the advice given, although we would always have a good reason for making the recommendations we make where other seemingly comparable alternatives are available.

In these cases, please feel free to contact us for more details.

3. Other Advice Recommending Lesser Levels

This last case is by far the most common type of conflicting advice scenario we come across.

In these cases, the third party providing the advice has raised no issues with the conformance of our advice, but merely claimed that an alternative and lesser level is ‘adequate’, often utilising phrases such as “all that is required”, “sufficient to meet your needs”, “sufficient to meet your legal obligations”, “sufficient to secure the safety of your staff and members of the public”, etc.

Absent any allegation that our advice, service or supply is non-conformant, the third party in question is saying that their views are superior to those represented by the British Standards and that the British Standards are excessive. Statements implying such a level of expertise should be taken with a great deal of caution.

For the reasons given above, the advice we give in accordance with the British Standards is correct and competent advice. Less competent advice given by other organisations is clearly no reason for any investigative or corrective action on our part unless they also make claim of non-conformance under type 1 above.

A Special Note - Conflicting Advice from Fire Officers

Whilst saving lives is undoubtedly of the highest importance, it is also vital to a business that its interests are also protected as discussed in our Guidance Sheet “Effective Fire Fighting: The Economic Argument”. For example, according to an estimate by FETA (now the FIA) in one of their publications, “more than 75% of companies that experience a serious fire go out of business either directly as as result of the fire or within 3 years of reopening”. However, according to the Fire Extinguisher Survey by FETA (now the FIA) and IFEDA (requires Adobe® Acrobat® Reader), 80% of all fires are successfully extinguished by fire extinguishers. Accordingly the need for effective levels of properly maintained portable firefighting equipment becomes abundantly clear. The above British Standards are the de facto standards that specify this.

The Chief and Assistant Chief Fire Officers’ Association (“CACFOA”, now “CFOA”) formerly recognise this as part of the agreement contained in the ‘Protocol for Portable Fire Extinguishers’ (the ‘Joint Protocol’) duly signed by Jeff Ord, the then president.

This has been effectively communicated to the vast majority of Fire Officers. Unfortunately a small minority remain that are:

  • working to outdated or poorly drafted documents that don't reflect the current British Standards; and/or
  • ill-informed with out-of-date views on portable firefighting equipment that concentrate on the issue of saving lives (a good thing) without proper consideration of other aspects such as property protection, business continuity or standards/insurance/statutory compliance (a bad thing).

Such views fall beneath the requirements of the British Standards, are contrary to the Joint Protocol and almost certainly contrary to the Policy of the Brigades to which the Fire Officers in question belong.

Where we are made aware of Fire Officers acting contrary to the Joint Protocol, we bring the matter to the attention of the relevant FIA-CFOA Liaison Committee for their action. Unfortunately the resolution of such problems is often a slow process.

It is also worth noting that we are aware of no Fire Brigades or Fire Officers at the time of writing that carry certification by UKAS-accredited independent third party to BS EN ISO 9001 to ensure their ability to assess in accordance with SP101, ST104, BS 5306-3 and BS 5306-8. Accordingly, where their advice runs contrary to ours one should perhaps question their expertise in assessing compliance to these standards or otherwise making recommendations as to appropriate levels of cover or maintenance.

A Special Note - Conflicting Advice from Competitors and Fire/Health&Safety ‘Experts’

The conflicting competitive interest should be abundantly clear. Many such parties feel it serves their interests to tell prospective customers that it can make good commercial sense to not adhere to the levels of the above British Standards.




We are members of FIA, the Fire Industry Association (formerly FETA and the BFPSA). Click here to find out more. We've over 70 years experience with parts of our group having been trading since 1947! Click here to find out more. We are BS EN ISO 9001:2015 certified by the UKAS-accredited independent third party, BSI. Click here to find out more. We are registered with BAFE, the British Approvals for Fire Equipment. Click here to find out more. We are members of the IFE, the Institution of Fire Engineers. Click here to find out more. We carry comprehensive Public & Product Liability and/or Professional Indemnity Insurance up to the value of a staggering £5m! Click here to find out more. We are members of IFEDA, the Independent Fire Engineering & Distributors Association. Click here to find out more.